a Kelly Powditch marriage

Email Date

and To or From

Message (edited)

16/8/2005

From Terry

I have only just discovered your website and what an extensive site it is. On

browsing the many interesting aspects covered on the site I think I may have an answer to the question raised under the heading "Strays" It concerns the marriage of Mary E(lizabeth) Powditch in India to William Henry Kelly. The latter is my great grandfather. I have a copy of my grandfather's birth certificate on which are the names of his father and mother. The date of the marriage is 11th Feb. 1860 at

Christ Church, Bankipor, near Patna, India.

My grandfather, William Herbert was the eldest of five sons all born in India.

Their father, William Henry was a steward to the Maharajah of Cooch Bihar. ( as a child I remember taking possession of some old sepia photographs of the Maharajah and his family on the verandah of his palace with William Henry in the picture as well - unfortunately these photographs were lost when my parents moved house many years ago). I learnt from my grandfather that on a return to England in the 1870's their mother died on board ship - and possibly was buried at sea - and the boys were subsequently put into a private school in Kings Lynn. They all appear on the 1881 census at 6, Tower Street with the exception of my grandfather who at the age of 18 had presumably moved out into the big wide world.

At the moment I am trying to find out more details of Mary Eliza(beth) Powditch

and the connection to Norfolk. I guess she was born around 1840 but what was she doing in India? As well as this I'm trying to trace, with limited success grandfather's brothers Unfortunately Kelly is a much more common name than Powditch.

I hope that this information will help to fit a bit more of the jigsaw and perhaps

through your website I will be able to uncover some more of my Powditch ancestors.

18/8/2005

From Terry

My great grandfather William Henry Kelly was steward to the Maharaja of Cooch

Bihar and married Mary Elizabeth Powditch on 11th February 1860 at Christ's Church, Bankipor, Near Patna. |They subsequently bore five sons, William Herbert Kelly the eldest being my grandfather. On returning to England in the 1870's the mother died aboard ship and the five boys were put in a private school in Kings Lynn. Four of them appear in the 1881 census at 6, Tower Street. I am still searching for more information about Mary Elizabeth; her birth, presumably in Norfolk? , what was she doing in India? I hope your website may prove useful.

18/8/2005

To Terry

Many thanks for your emails, and the information re your Powditch connection.

Now we come to the 'nitty-gritty', and to your great grandmother, Mary Elizabeth

nee Powditch, and her marriage to William Henry Kelly on 11 Feb 1860, and I must answer your interest and enquiries to the best of my knowledge.

First of all, I must really say a big thank you to you, not only for all of the

information you provided, but also for telling me that Mary's middle name was

'Elizabeth'.

In the past, whilst trawling the various search engines, I had indeed come

across references to a marriage between a Mary E. Powditch to a William H. Kelly in India in 1860, but had had great difficulty in being able to 'line up' which of the various Mary Powditch's in my database and within my archives etc she could be. Indeed, I had posted several messages on Genealogical Lists and Digests in the hope that a family member/descendant would be able to help me out, but until I heard from yourself, that particular branch of the family had been put into my 'how/why'who?' etc file!

I had also included a section on the www.powditch.plus.com/ website

relating to families who are connected to the Powditch family through marriage etc, which is entitled www.powditch.plus.com/Connections/index.htm - and if

you go to that page and click on the "Strays.........do you know who they are?" link

on that page, you will see the rather limited mention of the Kelly/Powditch marriage

Now, let's first of look at Mary Elizabeth Powditch, and see who she was, and

where she originated.

I do have many Mary Powditch's, but I actually only have one Mary Elizabeth

Powditch, and one Mary Eliza Powditch, so this means that I either have to

examine the one each Mary Elizabeth P. and Mary Eliza P., look at the possibility that one of the Mary P's had (or acquired) a middle name before she married, or that Mary Elizabeth Powditch - when she married William Henry Kelly, may have been a widow of a Powditch.

That you have information on the when and where the couple married (and as I

have never actually compared an entry in an Indian Church Register with that of an English entry) makes me wonder whether you have viewed the original entry, or indeed whether you have a copy of the Registered Marriage Certificate? for both should reveal the name of Mary Elizabeth Powditch's father, and indeed, whether she was a 'spinster' or a 'widow' at the time of her marriage.

Right then that is as far as I got to before I received your 3rd email, so at least I

can restart from here!

As far as I can see from my records, I only have mention of one Mary Elizabeth

Powditch, and she was baptised at All Saints' Church, Wells-next-the-Sea, on 9 June 1833; her father and mother being Samuel and Amelia Powditch (nee Hall).

Whilst it would be very easy to say that as I only have (as far as I can see) one

Mary Elizabeth Powditch in my records, that she must be your great grandmother, I must obviously tread with great caution, as I don't want to raise your hopes too much. Having said that, there are several clues within this family with which you might have some correlation.

Samuel and Amelia Powditch (nee Hall) had married at Wells-next-the-Sea on

3 March 1830, and over the next 19 years, they had 10 children (with the first child being born before they married).

Their children were;-

Amelia (A) bo. 1829

Mary (Elizabeth) bo. 1833

Ann Mary bo. 1835

Joseph Race bo. 1837

Joseph Samuel bo. 1838

James Race bo. 1840 - he went to Australia and founded one of the

Australian branches of the Powditch family

Sarah Eliza bo. 1842

Alice bo. 1844

John Robert bo. 1846 - he went to London and founded the

Middlesex/Surrey/Sussex/Essex etc branch of the Powditch family

William bo. 1849 - he went to Derby and founded the

Derbyshire/Lincolnshire branch of the Powditch family

Now I have made bold the name of one of the children of Samuel and Amelia, for

a specific reason, and that is because Joseph Samuel Powditch went out to India with the Civil Service, in which he was employed as a Clerk. Regrettably, although I still don't know to this day whether or not he married whilst he was in India, he most certainly died there in July 1873, from Cholera.

The family (whilst many of the 'children' were fairly young) had moved from Wells,

to live in Kings Lynn, and it was from there that William (child No.10) made his journey to Derby and to his new life on the Railways in that city.

You may be interested to know that I do have a copy of a most fascinating letter,

written in 1874 (in London) by Samuel Powditch, to his son - James Race Powditch (who had gone to and settled in, Australia) in which many members of the family were mentioned.

One of the mentions (and, by the way, when you say that "On returning to

England in the 1870's the mother died aboard ship" do you know which year it was that she actually died?) in Samuel's letter was of his daughter 'Polly', which I believe is the usual 'nickname' for the name of 'Mary'?, and indeed, he writes (without any punctuation, and with varying upper and lower case letters) that;

"........with Ann Mary and have been there a month she and Harris are well and have 2 sons and one daughter the oldest at Boarding School at Lynn

and we are expecting Polly Home for a short time with three of her Boy to

go to shoole [sic] at Lynn .............."

Now, as I said above, I must obviously tread with great caution, as I don't want to

raise your hopes too much, but ...............??!

What I would be most interested in, would be the names of your great

grandparents' children, for often, names of parents, and grandparents on both sides of the family were incorporated into the children's names. Similarly, surnames often were retained as second names (although I really felt sorry for the Doughty Powditch of many years ago!). Could it be that any of the names I've mentioned above, appear within the Kelly children, or their own children?

When you looked at the Powditch website, you might like to know that a book I

wrote way back in 1989, is reproduced in full (minus any illustrations for the moment) on the website, and that all of the people I've mentioned above, are to be found in Chapter 9; 'SAMUEL - Far, Far and Away' (to view the whole book click on the following link; www.powditch.plus.com/PeerlessPowditch/index.htm whilst to go direct to Chapter 9, click on;-www.powditch.plus.com/PeerlessPowditch/chapter_9.htm ) Mary is shown there, but only as Mary (minus the Elizabeth), and whilst at the time I queried the

year of 1833, I can now confirm that Mary Elizabeth was baptised at Wells, on

9 June 1833. (By the way, if we have the right Mary, then I can connect you to a

real lot of lovely people out there who would all welcome you into the family)

I hope to hear from you sometime re all of the above, and in the meantime, I can

honestly say that I'm really thrilled that you contacted me, and I'm really excited by what could be!

20/8/2005

From Terry

I did have quite a lot of family photos and of course the prize possession - my

grandfather's birth certificate. It is dated 25th Feb 1902 and is in the form of an "Extract from the Register of Baptisms solemnized at Christ Church, Patna A.D.1863." I assume my grandfather needed proof of his birth sometime in 1902 and had to apply to India for it. It has 1/2 Rupee Court Fee stamp attached. It is from this document that I got the parents names -William Henry and Mary Elizabeth Kelly.

I have not seen a copy of the marriage certificate of William and Mary, but

found what I took to be a tie up on the Indian Section of Cyndis list in the Index to Bengal Marriages. Though it only stated Mary E., by cross checking on the Mormon site I got the actual date and the full name Mary Elizabeth. It appears on the 1860 India Office Ecclesiastical Returns-Bengal Presidency, Misc. India. I agree it would be nice to view the actual marriage certificate to be doubly certain although the tie in with Kings Lynn later does add a lot of credibility.

My grandfather brother's are Arthur Kelly, Edward Kelly, Frederick Kelly and

George Kelly and are to be found on the 1881 Census at 6, Tower Street Private School, Kings Lynn St. Margaret Norfolk. Their ages are 15, 13, 12 and 10. The householder is one Joseph Braun and his wife Elizabeth, schoolmaster and housekeeper respectively.

The letter you have about "Polly" coming home with three of her boys to go to

school at Lynn really fits in nicely with what I know but as you say we must tread with caution. I wonder if there is any further information in the parish records re inventories of schools etc? Two other boarders and a servant make up the household. Incidently last year my wife and I took a mini break to Norfolk visiting Kings Lynn and were thrilled to see the house is still there in a pedestrianised little street and No. 6 is still there - albeit it is now a pawn shop!! It is a tiny little terraced house above a shop and one wonders how 9 individuals were living there. We also visited the Dog and Partridge pub in East Wretham just outside Thetford where my Grandfather was the landlord during the first World War and where incidently his daughter (my mother) was married in the parish church in 1919. Sadly the pub was in a state of dereliction awaiting planning permission to be demolished and make way for housing. There are problems as it is a listed building.

As I stated previously, my grandfather does not appear on the 1881 census but

appears later on the 1901 census married and settled down in Romford, Essex. I can only think that he was in digs somewhere and got left off or had he gone back to India for a spell to be with his dad?

As regards his mother dying at sea, this information was passed to me orally

from my mother who informed me that "Your granddad was only about 11 or 12 at the time his mother died aboard ship en route to England"; this makes it about 1873-4. I can't be more precise than that but I imagine there are ships' passenger lists covering this time.

I hope the foregoing is of use to you. I am more than happpy to give you

permission to take as much as you need to reproduce on your website bearing in mind that some of the information is only based on oral tradition and that I have only been involved in this for the last 18 months so I am very much a novice. However I do believe that only by sharing can you build a bigger picture. There is some saying that the sum of the individual parts is greater than the whole.

20/8/2005

From Terry

Comments: What a vast and informative site I've stumbled on! The gardening will have to wait until I've read the whole site. A tremendous feat by you, John.

Powditch Connection: My grandfather was a product of the Kelly - Powditch marriage in India in 1860

22/8/2005

To Terry

Having written in my last message that "names of parents, and grandparents on both sides of the family were [often] incorporated into the children's names. Similarly, surnames often were retained as second names" I was 'disappointed' to see that none of your Grandfather William Herbert Kelly, or his brothers - Arthur Kelly, Edward Kelly, Frederick Kelly and George Kelly - had a surname as a middle name, especially as this might have provided a definite link.

Having said that (and this is only a coincidence, nothing proof-positive) some of the children of John Robert Powditch, (i.e. William Henry Powditch's brother) did have the same names as those of your great grandfather's children, namely;

William Hubert Kelly Claude Herbert Powditch

and also Lionel William Powditch

Frederick Kelly Ernest Frederick Powditch

as well as of William Henry Kelly himself (Vernon Henry Powditch).

Having said all that however, I would have expected to have seen at least one of William and Mary's children to have had her father's first name included within one of their names (either first or middle) so I'm just wondering at the moment what is the significance (if any) of the 'omission'.

Since our last couple of messages, I have been looking (on-line) at the 'Deaths at Sea 1854-1890' indexes, and for a Mary Elizabeth Kelly.

Although the searches revealed several MK's, regrettably none of them were for the 1870s, although out of interest, I have included their details below (if anything, just to highlight the sort of info provided in the Registers themselves).


Entry No. 5128,	Entry No. 4131	Entry No. 5128	Entry No. 4,223
Maria Kelly,	Elizth Kelly	Mary Kelly	Elizabeth Kelly
Female	Female	Female	Female
Aged 22	Aged 25	Aged 23	Aged (not stated)
Died from Consumption	Died from Consumption	Died from Cerebral Haemorrhage	Died from "Phthins"[sic]
on 22.3.1867	on 1.6.1880	on 19.9.1880	on 17.6.1880
on board ship 'City of Boston'	on board ship 'Devonia'	on board ship 'Scottish Prince'	on board ship 'Baltic'
51421	76879	79622	65877

Besides the above, there weren't any entries for a Mary Elizabeth Kelly, and

none for the 1870s at all! although there were lots of entries for female Kelly's for the relevant (and other) period where their first names weren't stated in the indexes! I didn't check all of those, but I am hoping that I might discover something using a different 'avenue' of research.

6/9/2005

To John

Reading the book reviews last week in the national press I came across a

book only published last month entitled "Children of the Raj" by Vyvyen Brendon, published by Weidenfeld. Reading the review it appears that children born out in India were sent home to England as young as four years old; the reason being that disease was rife in India then and the education left a lot to be desired. This information would seem to bear out the news contained in the letter you have written by Samuel Powditch to his son in Australia mentioning that they were expecting Polly home with three of her boys to go to school in Lynn. I shall be looking out for this book in the bookshops as, although I don't expect to find any references to my Grandfather, it should give an insight to the early years of his upbringing

As I mentioned before, my grandfather who was 17 at the time of the 1881

census, must have moved on from the school in Tower Street as he does not appear on the census. In trying to locate where he was in 1881 I came across a James and Julia Kelly in Lower Darwen, Lancashire, both born in Ireland and whose household contained 4 sons and 2 daughters, The two eldest sons were William J Kelly aged 19 and James H Kelly aged 17 - both born in India! Whilst the Christian names are different the ages correspond to the time of my grandfather's era. Interesting, but purely speculative. My guess is this is just a red herring and not even worthy of being called a stray.

5/10/2005

Hello John,

Thank you for the warm welcome you gave me in the Welcome section of the eNewsletter. What a surprise to see my contribution quoted in full. In the meantime I have been able to add a few more names to my family tree and continue to search for the rest of the Kelly family. One died in Hongkong and another in Canada.

14/10/2005

To Terry

I will get down to replying properly re the Kelly/Powditch connection, but perhaps you could let me know re those Kelly's who died in Hong Kong and Canada. Were they the brothers of your grandfather, and if so, did their death certificates reveal more than just a first name for each? I'd be most interested re that, especially as at the time they were born, it was common practice for children to have at least two forenames, and it seems strange that although your great grandparents' each had two forenames, as did your grandfather, that none of his brothers had been endowed with such (could provide many useful clues if each did have another forename).

18/10/2005

To John

Enough of this frivolity and down to business. My grandfather's brothers have always been a bit of a mystery partly because losing their mother and, effectively, their father too, they were never brought up in a close family unit. As far as I can make out, their father ensured that they all had an education and left them to their own devices. Strangely, whilst all of the five boys were born in India only two of the births are recorded in the Bengal Presidency and these are Arthur Henry Kelly, born 12th November 1865 and Frederick Charles Kelly, born 1st February 1869. Both born in Patna, West Bengal. Apart from my Grandfather's birth certificate, I have no other birth or death certificates of the others at all. All I have is what I gleaned from my mother's recollection a couple of years before she died in 1991. I was not really into family history then as I am now but I did have it all written down and some of it I have since been able to verify on various search engines; also I did have the tattered copy of the family bible - and a good memory.

As a child I remember distinctly a photograph of a headstone of one of the Kellys and on the back it stated Hongkong and the date. This ties in with the fact(?) that one of the Kellys was a sea captain (merchant or Royal Navy, I don't know) and died abroad. Another one settled in Canada and was in the Canadian forces. This one, I am almost certain, was Frederick Charles Kelly. Supporting this I was, only a few months age, given a photograph that my eldest sister had hoarded and felt it was more use to me as I was the only one taking any interest in the family. The photo (undated, but I guess from the ladies' fashions, about the time of W.W.1) is in typically posed style and taken professionly and show Grandfather, grandmother, their two eldest sons and two daughters (my mother being one of them). Making up the family group is quite unmistakenly my grandfather's brother, Frederick Charles in army uniform - and with a maple leaf on the collar!!. He had no stripes so, presumably, was just a squaddie.

When my grandfather died, my mother had to go through the effects left in his flat and among them I still have an envelope (unfortunately no contents) in immaculate copperplate writing addressed to my Grandfather from Canada . It is dated 12th July 1950 and postmarked Victoria, B.C

Now on to the question of second names; of the two remaining Kellys, Edward and George, I've only managed to trace Edward who appears on the 1901 Census as Head of Household but still as only Edward Kelly. He was living at Blackwall Buildings, Whitechapel employed as a brewer's drayman - this must have been Charringtons Brewery on the Whitechapel Road which I remember as a schoolboy when I was at the Coopers' Company School just off the Mile End road. It does seem a coincidence that in that same census my Grandfather was living in Romford in Essex employed as a brewer's clerk - at Ind Coope and Alsopp Breweries. Going back to Edward his first daughter was Catherine (after his wife) and his second daughter was Elizabeth after his mother? His first son was Edward after himself! However NO second names at all.

As for dear old George Kelly I have absolutely no information at all apart from his existence at the boarding school in Kings Lynn in 1881.

I do agree that it was unusual for Victorian children not to have two first names. Having established that three of the boys did have a second name I suppose it is only a matter of time before I uncover the other names. Also it does not seem right that Mary Elizabeth did not seem to have had much say in choosing names from her family, though it is noticable that all the boys' names are in fact royal names which was the custom.

21/10/2005

Dear Terry

Many thanks for the info and excellent background details re your grandfather's brothers. That three of the brothers (and that includes your grandfather) did have a middle name would suggest to me that the other two brothers would have been more likely to have had one as well, it's just a case of discovering them somewhere, and with their elusive middle name. Once I get back to some form of 'normality', I will have a good look at some other sources and see whether the brothers appear in any other records.

3/11/2005

Dear John,

On reading through the newsletter, I realised that now we have established my grandfather's connection to the Powditch family, there is another batch of descendants in Australia from a different source. My Grandfather Kelly had four surviving children - two sons and two daughters. The younger daughter, Dorothy Minnie, married my father Frank Kirkman in 1919 in East Wretham, Norfolk. Her sister Olive Winifred married Albert Lewin Miller also in East Wretham in 1920. My Auntie Olive (Bobby) and Uncle 'Bert moved to North London where their only child, Joy was born.

Joy eventually married Douglas Brailsford and they moved with their three children to Rayleigh, Essex in the 1960's. On retirement, my Auntie and Uncle moved next door to them in Rayleigh. Joy and Douglas then emigrated to Australia hoping that their parents would follow but Uncle Bert died suddenly and so they built a granny annexe in Australia for my Auntie.

My Auntie died there in Adelaide in 1988 and sadly my cousin Joy died earlier this year. However the rest of the family still reside in Adelaide and of course the three children are now grown up with families of their own. So yet another branch of the Powditch family can be added to the tree. I hope my explanation of the lineage is clear.

15/12/2005

Dear Terry,

in this morning (Thursday)'s post, the long awaited marriage certificate for your great grandparents, arrived!!!!!!!!! Apologies for being a long time in contacting you, but hope that when you receive this year's Powditch Christmas card offering, you'll be very pleased.

By the way (and as a taster), William is shown on the Certificate as being in a "Sergeant in H.M.'s 19th Regt" - now, there's something to get your teeth into!!!!!!

17/12/2005

Hello John,

As regard the "taster" you mentioned regarding the occupation of William Henry Kelly, this has added another challenge for me. I am still wondering why Mary Elizabeth waited over three years before my grandfather (the firstborn) was conceived bearing in mind the large families that were prevalent then. Now you have posed another question. If William Henry Kelly was a sergeant in the 19th at the time of his marriage, at what time did he take employment as a steward to a W Taylor on the Maharajah's estate? Dare I write to the present Maharajah, for I think they still exist, to see if they have any reference in their archives? I will send you a (poor) copy of my grandfather's birth certificate.

23/12/2005

Hello John,

Congratulations on a super Christmas card which arrived yesterday with extra copies. This is one Christmas card that will certainly NOT be recycled in the new year! One of the extra copies has already been given to my eldest daughter who popped in on a lightning visit this morning to drop off presents before returning to Surrey. She is the one daughter who is interested in our family history and is grateful that I have the time to spare to research it.

I note on the marriage certificate that one of the witnesses present was a William Taylor. On my grandfather's birth certificate his father's profession is stated as steward to W. Taylor esq., Patna. Interesting....By the way, Mary Elizabeth's age is shown as 25 but as she was born is 1833 would she not have been around 26-7? I guess that is something to sort out in the new year.